Kidney cancer treatment prognosis data resource?

[t***@aol.com]

Where can I find sharp to the point information on treatments?

I'd like to know mean life expectancies relative to 'no treatment at
all', so it'd be a figure like 180% for a given treatment.
I'd also be interested in results for other cancers besides mine, just
out of interest, graphs etc.
And I'd also like to know what the actual mechanisms of death are,
particularly for mine - stage 4 renal cell cancer mets in lungs.
perhapts heart?

Maybe a text book if not a website?

I recently got my self a biology BSC, so I'm still very interested in
the subject, but the course I did didn't really go too deep into the
immune system (or else I fell asleep through that part!), and it didn't
cover dna mutation and cancer. I'd really like to know about that

Huge question,, I think... so again many thanks.

Tony

[J]

Post by t***@aol.com
Where can I find sharp to the point information on treatments?

http://www.cancerhelp.org.uk/help/default.asp?page=4130

Post by t***@aol.com
I'd like to know mean life expectancies relative to 'no treatment at
all', so it'd be a figure like 180% for a given treatment.
I'd also be interested in results for other cancers besides mine, just
out of interest, graphs etc.
And I'd also like to know what the actual mechanisms of death are,
particularly for mine - stage 4 renal cell cancer mets in lungs.
perhapts heart?

Most patients with advanced cancer experience pain during the course of
their disease.
Kidney cancer can spread to the Lymph nodes (next to kidney), lung, bone,
liver, brain, skin and apparently adrenal.
This one's had spread to his brain.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7357718/site/newsweek/

Are you reluctant to ask the kidney cancer ACOR mail list?
Surely there's "supporters" there? (loved ones of those who've passed away
and who might share with you the sequence of events that occurred during
their last years or months of life?

Post by t***@aol.com
Maybe a text book if not a website?

Maybe there's a sameness to the endweeks, unless there's a heart attack or
uncontrollable bleed?
http://www.crossingthecreek.com/chapter_excerpts.htm
Figgertoes told us that he (Michael) will open up a special area of the
website once a person has ordered and paid for the book. However, you've
got time to order the regular way. Probably very helpful to those who will
be caring for and about you, because at that point, I would expect that you
wouldn't care too much (just want symptom relief)
Actually Michael might know of some books about kidney cancer patients??
He's pretty open to helping where he can. His email address is somewhere on
that web page. (click on his picture at the bottom)

Post by t***@aol.com
I recently got my self a biology BSC, so I'm still very interested in
the subject, but the course I did didn't really go too deep into the
immune system (or else I fell asleep through that part!), and it didn't
cover dna mutation and cancer. I'd really like to know about that

Unless someone has another suggestion, I would check the science section of
a public library.
Ours has a search function (on monitors) or we can log in and search. There
are helpers at our librairies who might help you find books on kidney
cancer (or any other topic you are asking about). Some might also detail
the journey of loved ones from diagnosis to death.

Explains tumour cell growth, cell shedding and resistant clones and
doubling times.
"Principles and Practise of Oncology" by De Vita

Cancer Biology Third Edition
Raymond W. Ruddon, Director, Eppley Institute, and Professor of Oncology,
University of Nebraska
Price: £35.00 (Paperback)

Hello Tony,
Congratulations on acquiring your degree in biology.
Sorry, I can't answer all your questions, but I do hope some of this helps
you.
J

[t***@aol.com]

J wrote:
{part only reproduced)

Post by J
Explains tumour cell growth, cell shedding and resistant clones and
doubling times.
"Principles and Practise of Oncology" by De Vita

Thanks J for that detailed reply. I've found a few technical websites
And have asked the question there, but the book you mention here might
have the answer....

(The following is not meant to give the impression that I understand
the subject at anything other than a very superficial level, but it
helps me to write like this:-)
I understand how cancer is basically caused by a defective dna
sequence, so kidney cancer might well be the dna code for 'normal
kidney tissue-gone wrong'.

Now this faulty 'pseudo kidney tissue' does not respond to the normal
bodily chemicals that control growth. It grows under its own steam,
without the restraint of the body's normal regulatory controls.
....So on that basis, I have an idea how a primary tumour grows. But
particularly in cases like my own, where there has been a very long
cancer-free gap, while I can envisage how faulty dna might survive
dormant in the locality of its site of origin, I can't imagine how this
dna gets to my lungs, and resides there for years waiting for something
to activate it.


If you take a different idea, a virus, such as herpes, is like a short
piece of dna. It resides in my upper lip, becoming active when a cold
damp environment triggers it into doing so. It stays in my upper lip.
It never travels to anywhere else in my body.

Curious.
I'll see if I get a reply from one of the sites I've visited - so many
I'm starting to lose track - and then I'll consider buying some books.
I'll go the University library in fact :-)

yours

Tony

[Anne]

Post by t***@aol.com
I'd like to know mean life expectancies relative to 'no treatment at
all', so it'd be a figure like 180% for a given treatment.

Those figures don't aply for an individual case.

Anne

[Steph]

Post by t***@aol.com
Where can I find sharp to the point information on treatments?
I'd like to know mean life expectancies relative to 'no treatment at
all', so it'd be a figure like 180% for a given treatment.
I'd also be interested in results for other cancers besides mine, just
out of interest, graphs etc.
And I'd also like to know what the actual mechanisms of death are,
particularly for mine - stage 4 renal cell cancer mets in lungs.
perhapts heart?
Maybe a text book if not a website?
I recently got my self a biology BSC, so I'm still very interested in
the subject, but the course I did didn't really go too deep into the
immune system (or else I fell asleep through that part!), and it didn't
cover dna mutation and cancer. I'd really like to know about that
Huge question,, I think... so again many thanks.
Tony

Tony, you keep asking the same question, and I keep giving you the same
(correct ) answer. Are you just waiting until you hear what you want to
hear?

[t***@aol.com]

Post by Steph
Tony, you keep asking the same question, and I keep giving you the same
(correct ) answer. Are you just waiting until you hear what you want to
hear?

Hi Steph,
No....
I believe I asked the question both times, on different threads, before
you first answered me. I was merely concerned that it could get
overlooked in the other very long thread.
I do appreciate your response.

Are you a medical doctor? Are you involved in oncology?

Regards
tony

[Steph]

Post by t***@aol.com

Post by Steph
Tony, you keep asking the same question, and I keep giving you the same
(correct ) answer. Are you just waiting until you hear what you want to
hear?

Hi Steph,
No....
I believe I asked the question both times, on different threads, before
you first answered me. I was merely concerned that it could get
overlooked in the other very long thread.
I do appreciate your response.
Are you a medical doctor? Are you involved in oncology?
Regards
tony

I'm an oncologist..........

[t***@aol.com]

Thanks for that.

Why do the NHS in the UK, and the US and European health care
providers, spend money on treatments for stage 4 kidney cancer if it is
ineffective?

Tony

[Emily]

Post by t***@aol.com
Thanks for that.
Why do the NHS in the UK, and the US and European health care
providers, spend money on treatments for stage 4 kidney cancer if it is
ineffective?

Probably because people will feel cheated if they don't. Everyone is
allowed to want pain relief and palliative care, surely - isn't this a
treatment too? I reckon that if I were suffering from an incurable
disease and liable to die at any moment I'd probably still want my
medical team to do what they could, regardless of whether it would
actually do any good. I know it's what I'd want for any of my children,
if they were so affected.

[Steph]

Post by t***@aol.com
Thanks for that.
Why do the NHS in the UK, and the US and European health care
providers, spend money on treatments for stage 4 kidney cancer if it is
ineffective?
Tony

I didn't say it was ineffective. I said it doesn't affect survival. It may
affect quality of life..........

[t***@aol.com]

You'd really have to convince me with evidence if you wanted me to
accept the above.
Treatments such as Interferon and IL-2 are marketed as remedial, and
have significant side effects which are detremental to the quality of
life in the medium term. They are not sold as, or designed to be
palliative.

regards
Tony

[Steph]

Post by t***@aol.com
You'd really have to convince me with evidence if you wanted me to
accept the above.
Treatments such as Interferon and IL-2 are marketed as remedial, and
have significant side effects which are detremental to the quality of
life in the medium term. They are not sold as, or designed to be
palliative.
regards
Tony

I don't know if you are replying to me, Tony...........
Interferon and IL2 are certainly not "sold as remedial" if you mean someone
purports that they can cure metastatic kidney cancer, because they aren't,
and they can't.
And you are correct that they have nasty side-effects. As with all
palliative treatment, it's only worth taking them if the benefits (relief of
symptoms from the cancer) outweigh the side-effects. People with incurable
cancers who feel well are generally better steering clear of "palliative"
treatment..........

[t***@aol.com]

Hi Steph.
I didn't mean to imply 'complete cure' when I used the word remedial.

By remedial I mean 'in the direction of a cure'. Part way to a cure.
That is what they are designed to do - Shrink tumours, perhaps even get
rid of a few tumours. And 'remedial' is the basis on which their
efficacy is measured - 5 year survival - not 'palliative' or 'overall
improvement in quality of life..'
They simply are not marketed as, perscribed as, or designed to be,
placebos or palliatives.

[Steph]

Post by t***@aol.com
Hi Steph.
I didn't mean to imply 'complete cure' when I used the word remedial.
By remedial I mean 'in the direction of a cure'. Part way to a cure.
That is what they are designed to do - Shrink tumours, perhaps even get
rid of a few tumours. And 'remedial' is the basis on which their
efficacy is measured - 5 year survival - not 'palliative' or 'overall
improvement in quality of life..'
They simply are not marketed as, perscribed as, or designed to be,
placebos or palliatives.

Tony, you can't be partially pregnant, and you can't be partially cured.

Is there any evidence that this stuff can cure metastatic kidney cancer? No
Is there any evidence it can make you live longer? No
Is there any evidence it can shrink some tumours? Sometimes, yes, but so
what if that doesn't translate to a survival improvement?

Palcebos are not palliatives, and vice -versa.
The treatment we give at least 50% of the time is palliative, and often very
effective.

I think you need to get your ideas staright before you leap...........

[t***@aol.com]

Steph,
Thanks for the discussion
I don't think we will be able to agree about these things. I'm not
interested in playing word games , and cannot accept your assertions
unless you provide logic or evidence to support them.

I have enjoyed the discussion with you, hope you have enjoyed the
discussion too, so I wish you the best. But I think we ought to stop
about now.

Best wishes
Sincerely
Tony

[Steph]

Post by t***@aol.com
Steph,
Thanks for the discussion
I don't think we will be able to agree about these things. I'm not
interested in playing word games , and cannot accept your assertions
unless you provide logic or evidence to support them.
I have enjoyed the discussion with you, hope you have enjoyed the
discussion too, so I wish you the best. But I think we ought to stop
about now.
Best wishes
Sincerely
Tony

Tony,
just let me say that if you come here for advice, and I proffer it, I don't
have the time or inclinataion to provide "evidence". Either you accept my
advice or not, your choice.
But I meet many patients like you - you won't be happy until someone
confirms your preconceptions, Im afraid.
Good luck

[t***@aol.com]

Steph wrote:
you won't be happy until someone

Post by Steph
confirms your preconceptions, Im afraid.

You're wrong about me Dude and no doubt I'm wrong about you too, but I
would not believe anyone, even someone who 'confirmed my
preconceptions', unless they provided logic, or evidence, or a track
record that was known to me, to support their position. To me that is
good science, although I do realise sometimes people feel that I'm
undermining them by adopting this policy.
At the moment I've discussed this with three oncologists. In my
opinion, one is ridiculously positive, one is moderately optimistic,
and one (yourself) is relatively pessimistic. I have to weigh up the
evidence provided, and decide which truth seems most likely. I've
written off the most positive view as friendly but unrealistic
reassurance, and I'm currently somewhere between the other two.

I hope you understand all that, and hope you aren't offended by my
inability to accept your view as the accurate one at the present time.
Perhaps when I do find more data, I might even agree with you
completely.

It'd be nice if one day we had the opportunity to meet & understand
each other more, but sadly it's probably very unlikely.
If you're ever in the UK, and have time to spare, contact me on
***@tonyjeffs.com, and I'll buy you a drink.

Thanks for your good wishes

Tony

[Steph]

Post by Steph
you won't be happy until someone

Post by Steph
confirms your preconceptions, Im afraid.

You're wrong about me Dude and no doubt I'm wrong about you too, but I
would not believe anyone, even someone who 'confirmed my
preconceptions', unless they provided logic, or evidence, or a track
record that was known to me, to support their position. To me that is
good science, although I do realise sometimes people feel that I'm
undermining them by adopting this policy.
At the moment I've discussed this with three oncologists. In my
opinion, one is ridiculously positive, one is moderately optimistic,
and one (yourself) is relatively pessimistic. I have to weigh up the
evidence provided, and decide which truth seems most likely. I've
written off the most positive view as friendly but unrealistic
reassurance, and I'm currently somewhere between the other two.
I hope you understand all that, and hope you aren't offended by my
inability to accept your view as the accurate one at the present time.
Perhaps when I do find more data, I might even agree with you
completely.
It'd be nice if one day we had the opportunity to meet & understand
each other more, but sadly it's probably very unlikely.
If you're ever in the UK, and have time to spare, contact me on
Thanks for your good wishes
Tony

In the end you have to find an expert you trust, and take their advice

[J]

Post by Steph

Post by t***@aol.com
Steph,
Thanks for the discussion
I don't think we will be able to agree about these things. I'm not
interested in playing word games , and cannot accept your assertions
unless you provide logic or evidence to support them.

Tony,
just let me say that if you come here for advice, and I proffer it, I don't
have the time or inclinataion to provide "evidence". Either you accept my
advice or not, your choice.
But I meet many patients like you - you won't be happy until someone
confirms your preconceptions, Im afraid.
Good luck

Let's quit pussyfooting around.
Is the trial (either option) likely to cure Tony? No.
Is it likely to buy him any appreciable amount of time (taking into account
each 3 day period that he'll lose being in the hospital and time required to
recover from the side effects]? No
Is the treatment likely to make him feel worse? Yes, because he feels good now.

Is being in the trial likely to make him feel better? Yes, because he may be in
touch with others with kidney cancer and/or feel better doing something, rather
than nothing.
Is the treatment likely to shrink his lung tumours and/or help him breathe
better?
J
(change my answers if you disagree with them)

[J]

Post by Steph
just let me say that if you come here for advice, and I proffer it, I don't
have the time or inclinataion to provide "evidence".

Any patients (from your Province, that you are aware of) try either of these
protocols?
If yes, did the lung tumours shrink or disappear?
Extend their lives?

Please/thnaks.
J

[J]

Post by J

Post by Steph
just let me say that if you come here for advice, and I proffer it, I don't
have the time or inclinataion to provide "evidence".

Any patients (from your Province, that you are aware of) try either of these
protocols?
If yes, did the lung tumours shrink or disappear?
Extend their lives?

I forgot one, Steph.
Might the treatments (trial) help him with symptoms as the cancer progresses?
J

[Anne]

Post by t***@aol.com
Steph,
Thanks for the discussion
I don't think we will be able to agree about these things. I'm not
interested in playing word games , and cannot accept your assertions
unless you provide logic or evidence to support them.

www.google.com

I'm not as pessimistic as some in this thread. I'm in a chemotreatment
for time and quality and response to the treatment ( I'm not in a study)
is good and I can take it well. Most can't but since I'm realtively young
and in good condition that helps a lot.

If I hadn't taken this treatment I wouldn't be able to walk around in
this beautiful september weather. But you never know how it will affect
you. I had serious doubts beforehand but had a very serious and open
oncologist who I trust. We did a scan shortly after the first treatments,
so could see the effects early on. No use to go on if the effect is small
and side effects are dangerous.

If you want false hope, I think this newsgroup will not provide it.

Anne

[J]

Post by Anne
I'm not as pessimistic as some in this thread.

Well hear it from an Australian oncologist
(after pouring billions and billions of dollars into research, drug
development and clinical trials, every year, for many years)

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/helthrpt/stories/s1348333.htm
"I mean we are adding a little bit to survival and that has been the nature
of all advances in cancer treatment that you actually add to marginal
survival rather than these huge leaps with a couple of exceptions.
On the other hand I guess the expectation of the community is not that 60% of
people should be cured but that 100% of people should be cured and so I sense
why there’s a feeling there’s a disappointment.

However, as each year goes by, the number creeps up and it is the nature of
most modern medicine that we don’t have the sort of breakthrough that
journalists and the media like to talk about. What we have are incremental
gains"

By the way, the same situation exists for many other life-threatening
illnesses. They call out for more research (they don't even have 10% of the
amount of research dollars that's devoted to cancer) but some days I think
they've found the best there is and from hereonin, it'll be marginal gains.

Post by Anne
I'm in a chemotreatment
for time and quality and response to the treatment ( I'm not in a study)
is good and I can take it well. Most can't but since I'm realtively young
and in good condition that helps a lot.
If I hadn't taken this treatment I wouldn't be able to walk around in
this beautiful september weather. But you never know how it will affect
you. I had serious doubts beforehand but had a very serious and open
oncologist who I trust. We did a scan shortly after the first treatments,
so could see the effects early on. No use to go on if the effect is small
and side effects are dangerous.

I really can't comment, because I don't think you've ever told us your type
and stage of cancer.

Post by Anne
If you want false hope, I think this newsgroup will not provide it.

Well, is that a bad thing?
I think I'd be a hypocrite if I raged against quack cures, but "rah rah'd"
conventional treatments where cure or extension of life or improvement of
symptoms and/or quality of life was unlikely. Don'cha think?

Having said that, people (here) usually go with the best their doctor offers.
(and so it should be)
And so be it. Nobody, in the history of Usenet, ever changed their minds.
In other words, we each have our opinions, but people do what they think
best.
J

[Anne]

Post by J
I really can't comment, because I don't think you've ever told us your type
and stage of cancer.

BCC with distant metastasis.

Anne

[Steph]

Post by Anne

Post by J
I really can't comment, because I don't think you've ever told us your type
and stage of cancer.

BCC with distant metastasis.
Anne

BCC?

[Anne]

BCC?

TCC. I shouldn't post past bedtime;-)

Anne

[Steph]

Post by Anne

BCC?

TCC. I shouldn't post past bedtime;-)
Anne

Of the bladder?

[Anne]

Post by Steph
Of the bladder?

urether.

Anne

[Steph]

Post by Anne

Post by Steph
Of the bladder?

urether.
Anne

I'm sorry you'll have to ask the question again.............

[J]

Post by Steph

Post by Anne

Post by Steph
Of the bladder?

urether.
Anne

I'm sorry you'll have to ask the question again.............

There was no question. I happened to mention that we didn't know her
diagnosis.
So now we do. metastatic ureter cancer? Which is usually treated like
bladder cancer with BCG but high dose chemo in the case of mets? (is my
understanding of what's she's doing)
J

[p***@gmail.com]

Post by t***@aol.com
Where can I find sharp to the point information on treatments?
I'd like to know mean life expectancies relative to 'no treatment at
all', so it'd be a figure like 180% for a given treatment.
I'd also be interested in results for other cancers besides mine, just
out of interest, graphs etc.
And I'd also like to know what the actual mechanisms of death are,
particularly for mine - stage 4 renal cell cancer mets in lungs.
perhapts heart?
Maybe a text book if not a website?
I recently got my self a biology BSC, so I'm still very interested in
the subject, but the course I did didn't really go too deep into the
immune system (or else I fell asleep through that part!), and it didn't
cover dna mutation and cancer. I'd really like to know about that
Huge question,, I think... so again many thanks.
Tony

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